Comments on: Ripping CodeIgniter a New One, Part 2 http://jacobsantos.com/2009/programming/ripping-codeigniter-a-new-one-part-2/ Rumblings, rants, essays, stories by Jacob Santos about Web Site Development, Persistent Browser-Based Games, personal journal, and Programming. Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:53:55 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0-alpha hourly 1 By: Jacob Santos http://jacobsantos.com/2009/programming/ripping-codeigniter-a-new-one-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-35191 Jacob Santos Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:37:30 +0000 http://jacobsantos.com/?p=1153#comment-35191 A developer on a project might get by hacking a script together that combines presentation and business logic together just fine. It will be quick, simple, easy to do. The problems come later and that is where I contend CodeIgniter falls short. I think the problem is that some developers put far too much emphasis on getting shit done, which is fine. If you are coming up against a deadline, doing it the "right" way isn't in the roadmap. For what it is, it does well, but from the parts I've seen and what I've would like to use CodeIgniter for, I can not because its architecture does not allow it. I do not think replacing large parts of a framework is a better use of my time. I'll rather write my own in the way I would like to see it done than to rewrite parts of an existing one. Sure, I'll most likely end up spending more time on it, but mine will be far more extensible than CodeIgniter could wish to be. To answer your question, you can use whatever parts of the Zend Framework you need. If you need the controller, DB, and views (but you can use anything for the views), then that is all you need to use. For example, I have a project only using the controller and some of the security code. That is probably less than a percent of what is in there. Zend Framework does not require loading everything or using everything. You can use one part, 10 parts, or every part (which I doubt). It is more of a class library than a framework though. The way CodeIgniter returns objects is by casting the arrays to objects. You can do that in any framework that doesn't do so. Likewise, I believe they get the whole model paradigm wrong. The model can be anything, but they emphasis too much on DB data for the model which is unfortunate. Separation of the code base has its advantages, but only as far as the information is correct. A developer on a project might get by hacking a script together that combines presentation and business logic together just fine. It will be quick, simple, easy to do. The problems come later and that is where I contend CodeIgniter falls short.

I think the problem is that some developers put far too much emphasis on getting shit done, which is fine. If you are coming up against a deadline, doing it the “right” way isn’t in the roadmap. For what it is, it does well, but from the parts I’ve seen and what I’ve would like to use CodeIgniter for, I can not because its architecture does not allow it.

I do not think replacing large parts of a framework is a better use of my time. I’ll rather write my own in the way I would like to see it done than to rewrite parts of an existing one. Sure, I’ll most likely end up spending more time on it, but mine will be far more extensible than CodeIgniter could wish to be.

To answer your question, you can use whatever parts of the Zend Framework you need. If you need the controller, DB, and views (but you can use anything for the views), then that is all you need to use. For example, I have a project only using the controller and some of the security code. That is probably less than a percent of what is in there. Zend Framework does not require loading everything or using everything. You can use one part, 10 parts, or every part (which I doubt). It is more of a class library than a framework though.

The way CodeIgniter returns objects is by casting the arrays to objects. You can do that in any framework that doesn’t do so. Likewise, I believe they get the whole model paradigm wrong. The model can be anything, but they emphasis too much on DB data for the model which is unfortunate. Separation of the code base has its advantages, but only as far as the information is correct.

]]> By: Eric http://jacobsantos.com/2009/programming/ripping-codeigniter-a-new-one-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-35168 Eric Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:39:12 +0000 http://jacobsantos.com/?p=1153#comment-35168 I'll give you that codeigniter has some flaws...of course it does. I've tried LOTS of frameworks though, for lots of languages, and the reason I chose codeigniter was because of flexibility. I think by "restrictive coding rules" they mean things like naming your databases tables and fields certain ways so that they work well with your chosen framework. This is one of the biggest reasons I use it. I work for webservices at a university. There are HUNDREDS of databases that we use constantly to grab data from other departments that have TERRIBLE design, and no hint of following any standard when developed at all. Most of these databases have live apps hooked up and running off of them, with tons of new data hitting them every day, so it's not a simple matter of making new databases that aren't terrible. No, we need a framework that is both simple and easy when things are built right, but flexible enough to let us easily get down to bear metal without putting up a fuss when we have to do something completely unorthodox. Codeigniter has been marvelous for this purpose. Oh...and just so you know, cakephp, an extremely popular php framework, is also php4 compatable, probably for this very reason. I personally dislike cakephp, mostly because it's query results are just a bunch of nested arrays rather than the objects you would expect from a decent framework, and also because it's inflexible unless you want to pull teeth. We looked at zend. We decided it's way to heavy. We are running quite a few web apps for different departments that we develop for, and we couldn't justify the overhead. That, and zend tends to load way more crap than is necessary if I remember right (I may be confused). I’ll give you that codeigniter has some flaws…of course it does. I’ve tried LOTS of frameworks though, for lots of languages, and the reason I chose codeigniter was because of flexibility. I think by “restrictive coding rules” they mean things like naming your databases tables and fields certain ways so that they work well with your chosen framework. This is one of the biggest reasons I use it. I work for webservices at a university. There are HUNDREDS of databases that we use constantly to grab data from other departments that have TERRIBLE design, and no hint of following any standard when developed at all. Most of these databases have live apps hooked up and running off of them, with tons of new data hitting them every day, so it’s not a simple matter of making new databases that aren’t terrible. No, we need a framework that is both simple and easy when things are built right, but flexible enough to let us easily get down to bear metal without putting up a fuss when we have to do something completely unorthodox. Codeigniter has been marvelous for this purpose. Oh…and just so you know, cakephp, an extremely popular php framework, is also php4 compatable, probably for this very reason. I personally dislike cakephp, mostly because it’s query results are just a bunch of nested arrays rather than the objects you would expect from a decent framework, and also because it’s inflexible unless you want to pull teeth. We looked at zend. We decided it’s way to heavy. We are running quite a few web apps for different departments that we develop for, and we couldn’t justify the overhead. That, and zend tends to load way more crap than is necessary if I remember right (I may be confused).

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